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Post by Vendla on Jul 4, 2012 12:21:24 GMT -5
Sadly, this seems to be an issue that has to be addressed, and getting the message out to our new members right away seems the best way to head off problems with 'griefing'. Older members should be aware of this as well, so I hope everyone reads this.
Many new players to Landroval may be coming from other servers where wild behavior is common. I call it wild, others probably just call it fooling around, and if such stuff is tolerated or encouraged on other servers, we can understand how it might be assumed it's like that on all servers.
But Landroval is mainly a role-playing server, which means there's an awful lot of folks who want to role-play their characters in as realistic a manner as possible.
Lots of us really enjoy music, so you'll find concerts in the Shire and events all around the land. People spend a lot of time and thought putting together these events in the hopes of bringing fun and entertainment to everyone.
But I can tell you first hand, that such events are totally ruined for me when someone comes along and becomes disruptive. Often they'll hop around or ride their horses in and around the musicians, some will stand there and play their instruments while the musicians are playing. Many of these 'griefers' set off fireworks, and the most annoying of all are the ones who use 'forced emotes' that interfere with people who are dancing.
There are other places where role-playing folk like to hang out, such as in and around the Prancing Pony. Sadly, this place is often plagued by 'griefers' who have no respect for those who are trying to role-play. It's getting to be nearly impossible for we role-players to have a good time.
Now that you all know what 'griefing' is, please know that we will not tolerate any of our kin members being disruptive. Our leader, Faral, has worked long and hard to earn our Kinship a well respected reputation, and we will not let that be ruined.
Think before you act!
~Officer Vendla~
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Ratfish
Full Member
Kin Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Ratfish on Jul 4, 2012 12:26:44 GMT -5
Thank you very very much for posting this Vendla. I hope it will help
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Post by Faral Garriden on Jul 15, 2012 10:19:32 GMT -5
Thank you very much Vendla for addressing this issue and for your thorough explanation.
Indeed our kinship's good reputation has been built by all of us. Every member wants to enjoy the great reputation that The Alliance has built from day one. And every member is protective of it as they have a right to be.
None of us will put that at risk .... not for a moment.
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Post by Herebrand on Jul 18, 2012 1:00:40 GMT -5
Do Turbine actually care about griefing? From my experience, it doesn't seem that they do.
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Post by Vendla on Jul 18, 2012 13:24:35 GMT -5
No, I don't think they care, Herebrand, but I sure do, and if I ever find out our members are being griefers, I'll yank them around by their nose hairs. If they do it again, they get the big boot.
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Post by Herebrand on Jul 18, 2012 13:38:40 GMT -5
Is there any kind of reporting system? Are turbine staff actually online, ie present in-game, in any way, shape or form?
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Post by Vendla on Jul 18, 2012 16:46:00 GMT -5
Whenever I find myself in a griefing situation, people tell me to send in a 'ticket', though I have yet to figure out how.
Are there GM's online? I really don't know. I would imagine even they must take some time to play their own game so maybe some of the characters we know are secret GM's...*shrugs*
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Post by Faral Garriden on Jul 18, 2012 19:30:51 GMT -5
The kind of griefing that Lotro is concerned with is different than what we are addressing here i\I think. Lotro is concerned with much worse language and/or conduct than what we are talking about.
They do not care about the reputation of kins or people ... we are. We are much less tolerant than LOTRO ever will be.
I will say ... the GM's are quick to act on conduct that is not by their "guidelines"
Take a screen shot and also log the chat ... then go to "support and send a ticket" .... This is the only game that does what they say they will do about misconduct.
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Host
Junior Member
Kin Officer
Posts: 64
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Post by Host on Jul 28, 2012 3:53:25 GMT -5
Herebrand, on Brandywine 2 fellow kin members were talking in glff, one played a practical joke on the other so he called him a word that is not socially acceptable (it was friendly.... stupid, but friendly nonetheless). Someone from Turbine must have been watching glff very closely because within 15 seconds, he received an insta-3day ban. So I do belive Turbine does care, though as Faral said, they care more about language than Role-playing griefing.
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Post by Cuarlang / Legladhor on Jul 28, 2012 19:41:15 GMT -5
The extent to which griefers are allowed to run amok (despite how their behavior violates LotRO's CoC just as clearly as anything else that players are punished for), as compared to how typing a single four-letter word in a public chat channel can lead to a three-day ban within seconds, makes me surmise that the RPers who complain about getting griefed must be such a tiny minority among LotRO's players that their complaints form barely a blip on Turbine's radar.
Turbine's attention to those who cuss in public chat channels vis-à-vis their apparent preference to not bother doing anything about RP-griefing has implications, methinks. Why, though, does public-chat cussing warrant so much more effective moderating than RP-griefing? Is it a fear-of-litigation sort of thing, where LotRO GMs effectively deem the potential complaint of a parent who sees a four-letter word on their child's computer screen and takes umbrage thereat so much more valid than the actual (as opposed to potential) complaints of RPers who suffer griefing almost daily? Then again, I suppose public-chat profanity is much more common than RP-griefing, so by its mere prevalence it warrants more of a response.
What do y'all think?
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Post by Lorissa on Jul 29, 2012 20:02:02 GMT -5
The only way Turbine can effectively police role-play is if Turbine wrote up a rather extensive and detailed document defining what role-playing is, what is acceptable during role-pay, and the conduct regarding being "in character."
But would anyone really want that? How many here would enjoy having their role-playing defined by a bunch of corporate suits at HQ, many of whom probably do not role-play themselves and have never done so.
Any role-play rules handed down from on high are just as likely to hinder you as to help you; they cannot fashion the rules with one particular kin's version of role-play becoming paramount.
Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, the nature of role-play is highly diverse with varying levels of intensity, drama, rules, and acceptable standards. Just the other day during fishing, I saw someone role-playing his character using modern day references (<character> sneaks around in the weeds like a Navy SEAL>). Kinda blows the immersion, right? But that's how he role-plays. Should Turbine punish him?
In fact, I disagree with some of the things mentioned in the RP guide here on this forum. Most notably, the idea that you should never butt into other people's role-play. My opinion on that is that this is an open world. If you're role-playing drama in the Pony, you are physically there in-character and so am I. It's my choice to decide whether my character would intervene. If you're going to role-play in a public place like the Pony, you had better expect some intervention. If you want to role-play privately, go find an out-of-the-way place and role-play in fellowship chat.
Just my opinion, of course.
Bottom line, though, is that Turbine cannot enforce role-playing rules without creating role-playing rules ... and I'm not so sure that would be a good thing for any of us. Concessions would have to be made all around. The Alliance cannot have its wishes met at the expense of other kins who may have different role-play styles.
Turbine made the smart decision to stay out of role-play disputes given that this topic can be just as contentious as religion and politics.
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Post by Cuarlang / Legladhor on Jul 30, 2012 18:14:42 GMT -5
So griefing is just as valid as roleplaying? (Or to put it vice versa: Roleplaying is just as invalid as griefing?) Griefing is just another style of roleplaying?
By RP-ing in non-private areas, RP-ers thus forfeit any basis for complaining about getting griefed? Isn't that like responding to schoolyard bullying by telling the bullied kids to stop complaining about getting bullied and just go inside and sit near the teacher as she grades homework during recess?
If, during the recent Hobbit Hoedown, two players came along and parked their characters on top of Sevan and Glorie while the hobbits were playing a song and simultaneously started playing two separate songs (thereby creating a cacophony) on pibgorn and bagpipes respectively, you would have just shrugged, said "They've got as much right to do what they're doing as Sevan and Glorie have to play in this spot", and then left?
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Post by Lorissa on Jul 31, 2012 4:51:48 GMT -5
Where on earth did I say that? I do believe I'm being misquoted here.
No, what I actually said is that you risk creating a lose-lose situation for role-players by asking Turbine to intervene. I don't recall ever defending the griefers, so in the interest of civil discussion, I would appreciate it if you refrained from placing words in my mouth, thanks.
Surely you understand that Turbine Corporate is not interested in hearing all of the sordid details concerning who did what to whom, who started it, and who is right and wrong. They just want the problem to end. The result of this is the risk of having heavy-handed, carte blanche decisions being dropped upon the community. Decisions such as, say, banning musical performances in all major towns and quest hubs. There ... now Turbine's GMs don't have to waste their time investigating RP disputes over people creating cacophonies.
If Turbine ever had an interest in being RP moderators, they would have gotten involved in it by now. It has been, after all, four years or more. Be thankful they haven't, lest your RP be dictated by corporate policy rather than your imagination.
You're getting your cues, mixed, I'm afraid. When I was talking about RP in public areas, I wasn't referring to the right of people to deliberately disrupt events such as music concerts.
No, what I was referring to was how I disagree with this statement written some time ago by "Reyvan Tiber Creed." His post stated, and I quote:
If people cause a role-play commotion in a public place like the Pony, then anyone else who is flagged for role-play has a right to comment, intervene, or involve themselves ... but only if they're really role-playing. It is a public space and it is assumed everyone flagged for role-play actually exists in that room with the drama. I mean, what's the point of this huge open world if we have to pretend that everyone else in it (except our RP buddies) don't exist?
This is an entirely different scenario than people standing on top of our musicians just to ruin the event. I only brought up the public RP scenario to exemplify how people can differ on what acceptable RP is, not to give a free pass to true griefers who run around trying to spoil other people's RP - with the *intent* to spoil it.
Now, if you're having some scripted RP event in the Pony and other people not in the script try to get involved, well, that's your own fault, not theirs. It would be like holding a quiet book club meeting in the middle of Grand Central Station. Good luck with the crowd control!
Well ... if they are doing it in-character and are genuinely trying to RP, then my advice is to RP out a resolution without breaking character. Again, it's an open world, and like in real life, we cannot always predict or control other people's behavior. Not everyone plays a nice, quiet, law-abiding character. To demand that an evil person should suddenly become good during a concert is as much an imposition on their RP as their disruption is on yours.
Now, if they're just doing it to be jerks, especially if they're not flagged as role-playing, then by all means, treat them as true griefers and send a ticket to the GMs. Maybe they'll do something. Maybe they won't. Who knows?
At any rate, this is precisely the reason why I do very little RP on MMOs. Everyone tends to clique-up and then become indignant when an "outsider" tries to involve themselves in their RP, especially if they ruin the script or do something unexpected or unplanned. If only life itself could be that predictable, right?
Your reaction to my post only reinforces my earlier argument: The do's and don't's of RP can be just as contentious among role-players as politics and religion are among others. It thus stands that Turbine telling us via directive what those do's and don't's are would stifle a lot of RP.
Good day.
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Post by Cuarlang / Legladhor on Jul 31, 2012 17:11:39 GMT -5
That is precisely why I didn't "quote" any of your preceding post; my reply was based on my (incorrect, as it turns out) distillation of your preceding post. Instead of that opening question, I realize I should have written something along the lines of: "Wait, we're talking about differences of opinion regarding roleplay? I thought we were talking about griefing."
*resigned sigh* But since I have opened myself to accusations of misquoting, putting words in another's mouth, getting cues mixed, and being contentious, I shall respectfully nod in acknowledgement of the astute points you made and then sheepishly bow out of this discussion.
Farewell to all.
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Post by Vendla on Jul 31, 2012 21:23:12 GMT -5
I certainly didn't expect this topic to become a heated issue, but I can see that people have varying ideas on what is considered Griefing and what to do about it. To me, griefing is exactly what I posted....either accidentally (through ignorance or what-have-you) or deliberately disrupting other players' role-playing or their attempts to bring fun and entertainment to others. Just don't do it. Anything done to you 'personally', such as IM's with bad language or what-have-you, I would consider as "harassment" and definitely should be reported, and if Turbine only considers those types of reports important enough to do something about, then so be it. Hopefully someday, someone high up in Turbine will decide that my definition of griefing deserves equal attention. Now, let's get back to having fun.
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